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Click on play to hear Near You-> Installment Twenty Two Blue Ridge Trailways This installment will be a little different than the others, first because it is more autobiographical than simply reporting on history as an outside party and secondly because the end of the story is like so many others who have passed from the bus business as a result of the Trailways, Inc. Bankruptcy and the purchase of Greyhound by Fred Currey. There's no need to recount what everyone knows and for me to relive it again. Several people do seem curious to know how we started a bus line from scratch and how it progressed. Unless I follow the story to its end it will be incomplete but I will make the effort not to bore the readers with all the details. In the mid-70's I was working as Vice President of Traffic for Pacific Trailways in Bend, Oregon. The rest of my family, however, was in Florida, also my home for many years, moves and jobs before. My mother was especially keen on the family getting back together again in one place and after some deliberation, we decided to start a business we could all participate in. We explored a number of options and finally settled on a bus line. I had a number of years experience in the business and realized that charters were highly seasonal, feast or famine, and that our best chance lay in basing it on a scheduled operation which would provide a steady, year around, cash flow. I knew from experience that both Trailways, Inc. and Greyhound often had marginal routes that they wanted to drop, but also wanted to avoid the dog and pony show that went with abandonment hearings. Since I was with Pacific Trailways, I contacted Continental Western Lines in Los Angeles and Greyhound in San Francisco and a friend of mine got hold of Continental Southeastern Lines in Atlanta. I was most interested in Continental's route from San Francisco and Sacramento to Seattle, the old West Coast Trailways, and while Bill Hylton in Los Angeles personally would have liked to let it go, Dallas couldn't make a decision. Greyhound in San Francisco was offering two local routes, San Francisco to Stockton via Concord and San Francisco to Santa Rosa via Sonoma. Both were fair, revenue wise, but more importantly, they would come with ICC grandfather charter rights in the Bay area. At this time. Only Greyhound, Continental and Peerless Stages had ICC charter rights in the Bay area. Our talks were moving along quite nicely until all communication from Greyhound ceased. Several months after we had moved to North Carolina, my contact at Greyhound wrote to ask if we were still interested, but, by then, it was too late. With Greyhound suddenly unreachable for whatever reason, we turned to Trailways, Inc. In Atlanta. They had two routes available, Asheville, NC to Bristol, VA via Johnson City, TN and Columbia, SC to Anderson, SC via Greenwood. The revenue on the two routes was about even and so, based on the fact that Asheville seemed the nicer place to live, I chose the Asheville-Bristol route, which was my first stupid mistake, but unfortunately I didn't realize it until we were well into business and committed to the Bristol route. Hind sight certainly is 20/20. We incorporated in November 1978 as Blue Ridge Lines, Ltd., a member of the Trailways association from the git-go. By the time all the certificates were transferred (remember this is before deregulation), we were in 1979 and began running the Bristol route on June 1, 1979. Because we were "Trailways," the passengers only took note of the difference in the buses. Instead of TWI's Eagles, we used GM PD-4107's, and many of the passengers thought they were brand new. TWI had been trying to kill the route and had the service down to one round trip a day and no service on Sunday. We put daily service back on and added another round trip in the evenings. Both improvements were immediately well received with passengers. We decided to start with four used buses and one brand new one. For used buses, we bought four 1967 ex-Greyhound GM PD-4107's through my friend Dick Seitzinger at Hausman Bus Sales in Los Angeles. He chose carefully for me and we ended up with all Western Greyhound buses. I knew I could trust my friend Dick and so we bought sight unseen, something that would be repeated ten times. A friend of mine and I made two trips to California to ferry the 4107's back to Asheville where we refurbished the interiors, installed new upholstery and my brother made sure everything electrical worked again. For our new bus, we chose a Prevost. I was well acquainted with them but they were virtually unknown in the Southeast... in fact we bought the first, new Prevost in the South. Waylon Jennings got the second, but his was an artist's coach. We went with Prevost because our main local competition and Greyhound were running MCI's and Continental had Eagles, our Prevost would be something different. Prevost had three models, the Champion (what Waylon bought), the Prestige and the Mirage. The Mirage cost $5,000 more, so we decided on the Prestige. Prevost sold a lot of buses in the Southeast because of our purchase, I know, because we got the phone calls from other operators to find out how we liked them and what our experience had been. Not long after we started, we found out our "friends" at Trailways Inc. (TWI) would run passengers and package express around us and would refuse to quote us for any competing destinations. Since we had to exist off this 100 mile long line, we had to fight for our rights and finally Jim Kerrigan in Dallas had to tell TWI in Atlanta to do right by us. It allowed us to "breath more freely" but didn't win us any fans in Atlanta. Thus, in 1980, when TWI's Regional Vice President, Bill Lambert, in Atlanta came up and put his arm around my shoulder and proposed we take over their Asheville-Chattanooga line, I was more than suspicious. I did a study on the route. It did pretty well coming east from Memphis through the Chattanooga gateway, but westbound, all the departures came through Asheville right on top of competing service via Knoxville and Nashville to Memphis which was faster, so the revenue westbound was pretty thin. I proposed some schedule changes and thru-bus arrangements that would help that situation and which actually saved one bus necessary to run the service. Everyone agreed the changes would be good, but no one would commit to making them. I started to really feel uneasy about it and suspected that they were planning on taking service off feeding the route between Memphis and Chattanooga, I decided that there were too many butterflies in my stomach to go ahead with the route transfer and we declined. Sure enough, not long after that they cut service into Chattanooga and I was proved correct. Atlanta did the same thing a few years later to American Trailways (American Coach Lines of Norcross, GA) when they got American to take over the Atlanta-Huntsville route and then two months later cut off all the feed and connecting schedules for it at Huntsville. TWI's Atlanta folks were outraged when American promptly abandoned the route which couldn't exist without the connections. Our first Eagles came in 1980. They were the 01 style of Model 05's, built in 1968. We began to retire the 4107's due to the fact that the two lane highway we ran to cross the mountains to the Tri-Cities, once you crossed into Tennessee, was a real old Southern mountain switch back and that twisting motion was having its effect on GM's monocoque bodies. TWI's mechanics in Asheville had warned us the effect it would have on a GM and we decided to sell the equipment while they were still in prime shape, The Eagles, which were a fully framed bus, did very well on the mountain, but were more expensive to operate. In 1981 we moved to strengthen the north end of the line and obtained rights to serve Kingsport, TN. At first we used the Greyhound depot but they wouldn't quote or sell on us, so we opened our own agency and this turned out to be an excellent source of traffic for us. In the Tri-Cities, the Bristol agent quoted us fairly, but TWI's company station in Johnson City quoted everything around us via Knoxville, so Kingsport's traffic was sorely needed. We also added our second new Prevost, a Mirage, this year. 1982 brought the World's Fair at Knoxville, Tennessee. Friends at Michaud Trailways cautioned me, based on their experience with the 1964 World's Fair at New York City, to treat it like it was going to be one heck of a charter year, but not to expand, buying extra buses, hiring extra drivers and mechanics, etc. The advice stood us in good stead, and while the competition expanded and almost bankrupted his company, we finished 1982 in great financial shape. By this time we had purchased three Model 07 Eagles from TWI at Denver and an ex-Virginia Stage line Model 05 from the Knoxville shop. That one was an absolute cream puff, one that had been remanufactured in Brownsville and I think they wouldn't have sold it if Dallas had been able to look at it. During 1983 and 84, TWI was in the midst of killing that route to Chattanooga and had already cut it back to end at Murphy, NC, not far from the state line, plus it didn't operate on Sunday either. They filed to abandon the route and we approached the NC Department of Transportation and the Tennessee Dept. Of Transportation to subsidize the service if we took it over. Tennessee refused to talk about it but North Carolina came through with Federal Title 18 funding for rural transportation which covered half our losses, the State was supposed to kick in the other half... That was good for a joke, but at least half was better than nothing. We ran the westbound trip as a thru-bus from the Tri-Cities to Chattanooga via Asheville and while it didn't set the world on fire, the revenue was better than what TWI had on it. East bound, the run ended at Asheville and we had a direct connection from both Miami and Atlanta and from Memphis feeding us for our 4:00 AM departure. When we commenced service we cut quite a bit of time off TWI's previous running time but leaving Chattanooga, TWI carried all the passengers for Waynesville, Asheville and beyond around us via Knoxville. I couldn't say anything because they matched our running time. Of course they wanted all the traffic we could generate as we came up the road to feed their schedules at Asheville. Some things never change. We now had big problems with the route crossing the mountains to the Tri-Cities. It was what is called a "bridge route." it couldn't stand on its own with local traffic but absolutely had to have connections from everywhere feeding it at one end, and connections to everywhere at the other. Trouble was, Trailways, Inc. was having problems and was cutting service... We were loosing our connections, we had a bridge but with fewer and fewer people crossing it. In 1985, things were getting pretty tight and it is my belief that friends of our company at TWI headquarters in Dallas realizing that without meaning to, they were killing our line. TWI's Vice President of Traffic was Malcolm Myers, a long time friend and at one time a Queen City employee before the Continental purchase of Queen City and his transfer to Dallas. I got a call from Malcolm one day and he offered us TWI's route from Asheville to Charleston, SC via Spartanburg and Columbia. I'll sound ungrateful at this point, but I said, "...what's wrong with it Malcolm?" His reply was that there was nothing wrong with it but that it just dead ended in Charleston and didn't fit in with their grand scheme of things. I found out years later that our old nemesis, Bill Lambert from Atlanta was livid about the idea but that Jim Kerrigan just told him, "Do IT." To say that it was good for us is an understatement, it was marvelous, and for years I wondered why they did it. It's obvious now that my friend realized what was happening to us and saved our bus line. What can I say? Course I fooled with it a bit, tightened up the schedules and added some service back where TWI had taken it off and was lucky enough to have it work and bear fruit. Of course, our increased traffic on the route brought TWI more business than they had been getting, so it wasn't just one sided. 1986 saw the end of service across the mountain and then shortly after the line west was dropped too. With Tennessee unwilling to help, we were running the last half of the route, all in Tennessee, with two and three people on the bus and while I like to run buses and enjoyed serving Chattanooga (the agent there was fantastic) we couldn't afford to subsidize the State of Tennessee when they weren't even willing to dole out Federal funds they were already getting, preferring to spend it on rural van service. With the loss of those few overhead passengers to and from Tennessee, the NC-DOT decided that not enough people were riding the NC portion and ended their subsidy participation and one of Smoky Mountain Trailways' first routes, indeed the Trailways association's first route west, slipped away into history. Our world ended in the spring of 1988 when our worst nightmare came true with the announcement that Greyhound Lines was purchasing Trailways, Inc. It wasn't just a surprise to us, only three people at TWI headquarters in Dallas knew what was happening, Jim Kerrigan, Harry Lesko and Ben Robinson. It was already on the news when their employees were called into the halls at HQ and told. When members of the Trailways association gathered in Washington shortly after the announcement, Fred Currey had already cut sweetheart "revenue sharing" deals with Carolina Trailways and Indianapolis & Southeastern, to effectively make sure that portions of Trailways had no vested interest in seeing the rest of the association succeed. Their fortunes were now locked into Greyhound. For us and others, as terminals were combined we found that only Greyhound routings were quoted. We lost ALL our business from Charleston to the northeast, all the business we handled from Charleston and Columbia through the Spartanburg gateway to the west. Greyhound schedules loading in front of us in Columbia even took our Spartanburg passengers long routing them through Greenville. Things didn't get better for any of Trailways, us included. Then Greyhound's drivers struck and their bankruptcy followed. They asked us to pick up and serve where they weren't able to. Places like Knoxville and Charlotte. Then, when they began to get their service started again using non-union strike breakers, they put us out of the Knoxville Terminal saying that we didn't have a terminal license agreement. In other areas, business was diverted to Greyhound affiliates like Southeastern Stages at our expense. In 1996, I was called by a senior Greyhound official from Dallas and informed that they had decided that we "...didn't add anything to the Greyhound System and were really carrying passengers who should be riding Greyhound buses." Then he raised our terminal rent at every location 800%. The service we were left operating, Charlotte to Charleston was profitable for us, but couldn't carry that kind of expense and I was forced to shut .the schedule operation down. After 18 years of struggling and building, I watched another man destroy what we'd built and was powerless to do anything to stop it. The day following our last schedule, Greyhound buses were running our schedules and do to this day. That's progress you see. Click Here for photo(BRI-77852_PD4107-a) Click Here for photo(BRI-610) Click Here for photo(BRI-77618_E07-G) Click Here for photo(BRI-77202_5303A) Click Here for photo(BRI-77920_PrevPrestiege) Click Here for photo(BRI-77446_102A3-Drayton) Click Here for photo(BRI-476_4104) Click Here for photo(BRI-77440_MC8) Click Here for photo(BRI_CalhounSt-CHS) Click Here for photo(BRI-77922_Mirage < Some follow-up questions for Jon [Mark Fisher said] 1. Individual and Personal Integrity (or lack thereof) outlasts corporations . Oh agreed. Doug Woodie and I were talking about that the other day. I was always so proud of the people I worked beside at Blue Ridge. They were always the model of how things should be done, so much so that even Greyhound's and Trailways' supervision noticed and commented on it. 2. The small business founder seldom plans an ending. However, no one lives forever, so longevity is only one measure, and quality of the living time also counts, right ? I think so. The thought of someone else forcing me out of business never occurred to me though, not with the U.S. government giving someone the keys to the store and then walking away. We weren't a big company, our revenues never exceeded about $4.5 million a year, but we always carried on like we were a coast-to-coast outfit . We never had any problem keeping agents, unlike some others we know. 4. The sad fact is that most new businesses don't make it 5 years. It seems to me that you guys did a lot of things right, and adjusted to outside forces pretty well. For the most part, we made do with other people's cast-offs. 6. I'll bet that you had some fun while doing all of this. I'll bet other readers here would also like to hear more details. For example, I for one would love to hear the details of your "adventure" bringing those PD-4107's 2500 miles east. Well, here's a picture of the first two stopped to eat in Arizona. The numbers haven't been put on yet and the special "Blue Ridge" and gold leaf decal aren't on the roof. We really had virtually no trouble at all, just a long, long, drive. We came across through Dallas and then up through Memphis and into Asheville on I-40. We got a lot of strange looks from other Trailways drivers in their Eagles as we passed the other direction in 4107's! The buses came straight out of Western Greyhound's fleet. Each morning Dick would go by their garage in L.A. and look over what was there. Hausman bought all the 4107's but they took them individually as they could sell them, so he looked for the best for us. They were painted at Ryan Truck Painting in L.A. and I know that it messed over those folks minds because the buses came to them with full Greyhound markings and left painted Trailways! The only problem we encountered is that 77856 wanted to drop its prime occasionally after it had been parked and shut off. I was always able to get it started though. After we got it back, it continued doing the same thing with us and my brother finally just started going through the whole fuel system inch by inch and finally found the problem. He said as he covered the bases that it was obvious that Greyhound had been looking for the problem for a long time as he came across new parts that they had put on.Click here for picture of BRI 4107's [Ed Cross commented] I for one would love to hear more about bringing the " 07's to the Tarheel. We had two sets of "07's" so I'm not sure whether you meant the GM's or the Eagles. I just told some about the GM's, so I can mention a bit about the Model 07 Eagles. We wanted to move into "square look" Eagles. At the time they were just beginning to sell the "square looks" and had a few 05's and some Model 07's available. This was in 1981. I was very familiar with the 07's because I had driven them at Safeway. They scared most people because they were 102" wide, so TWI had them priced $5K a piece less than the 05's which were for sale. I was most concerned (1) that they could be legally titled in NC and (2) that the windshields were available from PPG -- the 07's did not have a tapered front end and standard windshields like the model 15's later. I found that 07's were legal in NC (and other surrounding states - and where they weren't no one knew the difference because they looked like a normal 05) and PPG still made the glass. TWI had all the 07's concentrated in Denver, so a friend of mine and I flew out to look them over and pick one out. Turns out that the shop manager in Denver was an old friend from Safeway and we got the royal treatment. We spent several days looking at the buses as they came and went and made our choice, DCSP 18552 which had originally been Safeway 32528. We eventually bought three Model 07's. When we got the first one home, we were so pleased with it that we went right back for another. On our initial visit I actually eye-balled all three that we bought. The second bus was one they were putting an engine in during our first visit, Rocky Mountain 21576 which was originally Safeway 32542. The second bus was the only one which still had the "lightning bolt" on the side and on the way home I went by way of Dallas and had the body work done on it. We dropped it off on Friday afternoon and the fellow at I-45 Bus * Truck (he also worked in the TWI body shop at 315 Continental Avenue) brought it back to me at the motel on Monday with the sides lowered (G body inspection), repainted and with the new decals on it and numbers. With the World's Fair approaching in Knoxville and fantastic experience with the first two 07's, I called TWI and inquired about the third bus I'd seen, Rocky Mountain 21506. That bus had spent its entire life in Colorado running back and forth between Grand Junction and Pueblo over Salida Pass - I'd seen it many times while I was going to school out there. This is the bus in the picture of the 07 that was posted with the installment - taken after my brother cherried out the body and repainted it. When I called about it, it was no longer in Denver but in San Francisco. I was offered a discount because it had a weak engine but was assured it would make it home. I arranged for an ABL driver to bring it to me in Salt Lake City. When I landed in SLC, there was a message for me to call the office and I found out that the bus had broken down and had to be towed back to the SFO shop! What I found out was that the bus had pulled a sleeve in the middle of the Bay Bridge, it hadn't made it 10 miles! I talked to TWI's people in Dallas and they sold us a reman'd engine and installed it while I waited in Salt Lake City. When the bus finally got to me, the same driver brought it, it ran like a top. The Model 07 Eagles were fantastic buses. Both our drivers and passengers loved them, in fact years later Doug Woodie doubled a Greyhound from Charlotte to Charleston, WV, and ate their bus up. Maybe he'll recount the story for us, it's funny. They all were bought for either artists coaches or motor homes and we had people calling to see if we still had any years after the last one was gone. The bus in the picture, BTW, was converted to a 45 footer, had Model 15 clips put on the front and rear and runs for The Kingsman Quartet" if any of you are into Gospel music. I also would enjoy the " Over The Mountain " schedule you had. I know how narrow and crooked US 23 used to be. I remember doing it in a Truck and also later in a bus. The first time was before any of the upgrades were done. I remember all those 25 MPH curves. The longer we ran that mountain over "Sam's Gap" and US 23, the more I realized just how dangerous the road was. [Doug Wilkerson added] It's easy to see why equipment and folks got worn out on the old roads. Still the new Interstate will have 5% and 6% grades. There's very little of the old road left. From the state line at the top of Sam's Gap on all of the Tennessee portion now, it's an Interstate highway. Besides being a switch back, that area was beautiful and when Tennessee built the new road, they cut down every tree on that mountain and then carved the new road into the side of it. I've never drove it in a bus, but as you point out, the grades are wicked and the road is wide open, no protection from the winter weather. I didn't like the look of it at all. If you don't mind, I have some follow-up questions for you regarding the Blue Ridge installment on T.B.D. 1. Did Pacific Trailways ever consider operating CWL's San Francisco-Seattle route while you were there? No. It had been offered to PT before I went there and, as Bill Niskanen admitted to me, not taking it was one of the stupidest things he ever did. Potentially it was a much stronger route than PT's existing main line from Portland to Salt Lake City, but he realized it too late. TWI would have given it to PT for $1.00! 2.Did Blue Ridge ever consider operating past Kingsport, TN and Norton, VA on US 23 up to Pikeville and Ashland, KY, especially after Greyhound abandoned the Pikeville-Ashland ca 1991? Or any Consolidated Trailways routes? We ran up to Norton and Big Stone Gap under temporary ICC authority. It hadn't had service for a while, Bristol-Jenkins Bus Line had quit serving the area. The revenue was too thin and I didn't feel like subsidizing the State of Virginia and it's citizens. We applied to Virginia for Title 18 funds and they refused and told us our request wasn't legal and wouldn't listen to anything I said. That isn't the part of Virginia that the law makers in Richmond care about. At the same time, our temporary authority was expiring and the ICC denied our permanent application! Unbelievable!!! So, I pulled the service off. Then the stuff hit the fan and all of a sudden the ICC decided they'd made a mistake and the State got interested. I really wasn't in a mood to fool with them any longer and told them they were a day late and a dollar short and we never ran up there again. Years earlier we did have thru service to Bluefield from Asheville, but that was a pool with the late Bill Vanderbilt's Dominion Trailways who operated the Bristol to Bluefield section over the old Tennessee Coach route.. 3.Did Blue Ridge ever consider operating all the way to Memphis on the Asheville-Chattanooga-Memphis route after Trailways, Inc. dropped it? No, we only went as far as Chattanooga and when we stopped going all the way to Chattanooga, TWI was still on the route, which actually survived into Greyhound ownership although I believe its gone now. Greyhound didn't have a clue about what to do with it or where the people went. 4. In your Eagle 77610 picture the destination is Bluefield. You once mentioned pooling with Dominion Trailways. Is this during that period? You picked that up. I mentioned it above. The thru bus did good things for us, but Bill Vanderbilt told me that he was loosing fifty cents a mile on his 100 mile long segment. Dominion did much better when they ran from Roanoke to Greensboro. 5. On the Asheville-Chattanooga route, did Blue Ridge use the same bus stop in Cherokee by the bridge that Smoky Mt. used for many years? No, we had our own agency that was up at the Cherokee Tribal Grounds and it did very well for us. There is the Oconoluftee Job Corps Center there plus the Indians are always going back and forth to Oklahoma plus international visitors going there to visit Smoky Mountain National Park. 6. Do you have schedules for Asheville-Bristol-Bluefield that you could post? Ummm, I should have, but my dad got a wild hair and decided he was going to clean out the Asheville office when I was gone and threw so much stuff away that I was saving. There was no stopping him when he decided something had to be done. Here is the schedule though.... 3p30 Lv Bluefield, WV...........Ar 12p30 6p15 Lv Bristol, VA-TN..........Lv 10a30 9p40 Ar Asheville, NC...........Lv 7a15 Each company had 100 miles in the route. The schedule was pulled with all Blue Ridge equipment and our drivers drove Dominion's route too. It was a turn around and was a 400 mile day. To equalize the miles, a Dominion bus and driver pulled a round trip from Bristol to Asheville every day. 7. Was revenue sharing discussed at the Washington meeting? Yeah, but it was a done deal and we found out it had only been offered to four member companies, I&S and Carolina who took it and Capital and Colonial who turned it down. The rest of us were never invited to the party! 8. Was Asheville the Blue Ridge headquarters during all 18 years? No, at the end, I ran it out of Charleston, SC, but things were coming apart at the seams then. Not a happy time. Jon, did BRT also operate P8M4108A's ? I have a couple of pictures of units 77430 and 77432 I think. How many, and what were the origin of these units ? We had two P8M-4108A's, here's a picture of one of them. Trailways companies do a lot of swapping around and these two came from Ben Kramer's Peoria-Rockford Bus Co. operation. When they left our property, they went to what was then called Trailways Northwest in Vancouver, BC.Click here for picture of the BRI 4108 Gerry Jones said... Enjoyed this very much. Sound like you had a great company, and it would have been a fun place to work. It was/ I had so many great people to work with, they all knew their job, nobody hassled anyone. It sounds a lot like Inland Empire Stages. They only due charter work. After I retired from Amtrak I worked in their office, until I moved to New Mexico. From what you've said, they sounded like nice people. > You said your with Pacific Trailways. I believe they were out of Bend OR. Did you know a Steve Jones, I believe he was Pacific shop Forman? He now works for Inland Empire. When I was with PT, the Director of Maintenance was the late Ron Gallagher, a really great guy and master mechanic. Thanks for the interesting information on Virginia Overland. > JON,I always dreamed and wondered about those PD4107's. However, > during the time Hausman had them for sale, we weren't running > motoroaches. Whatever became of those 100 units ? Weren't they the > end of the line for bus supply relationships between Greyhound and GM? Greyhound bought two batches of 4107's, the first came in 1966 and the last in 1967. The 1966 units had some real problems for everyone who had them so we stayed away freom them. We chose 4107's )they were selling MC-5A's at the time too) because GM was still making that style bus, the price was right, the large baggage bins made it easy to handle the bass drums, tubas, etc. for school bands. As I said, both our drivers and passengers really liked them. No one ever complained that we sent an old bus and they never broke down. Course they were refurbished inside sand out. We sold all four of ours at a profit, no less... one went to Chamberlain's Bus Service in Mansfield, PA, another to some sort of Pentacostal ministry in Anderson, SC and then to Coach Charters in Greenville who wrecked it, and the other two went to Taz Transportation in Portland. I guess Buzz Raz liked them because he came back to us and asked if we had more. Jon INDEX Home Page Page 2 Page 3 Page 4 Page 5 Page 6 Page 7 Page 8 Page 9 Page 10 Page 11 Page 12 Links If You Like What You Have Read And Would Like To See More, Please Take The Time To Sign Jon's Guestbook. View My Guestbook Sign My Guestbook EMAIL
This installment will be a little different than the others, first because it is more autobiographical than simply reporting on history as an outside party and secondly because the end of the story is like so many others who have passed from the bus business as a result of the Trailways, Inc. Bankruptcy and the purchase of Greyhound by Fred Currey. There's no need to recount what everyone knows and for me to relive it again. Several people do seem curious to know how we started a bus line from scratch and how it progressed. Unless I follow the story to its end it will be incomplete but I will make the effort not to bore the readers with all the details.
In the mid-70's I was working as Vice President of Traffic for Pacific Trailways in Bend, Oregon. The rest of my family, however, was in Florida, also my home for many years, moves and jobs before. My mother was especially keen on the family getting back together again in one place and after some deliberation, we decided to start a business we could all participate in. We explored a number of options and finally settled on a bus line. I had a number of years experience in the business and realized that charters were highly seasonal, feast or famine, and that our best chance lay in basing it on a scheduled operation which would provide a steady, year around, cash flow.
I knew from experience that both Trailways, Inc. and Greyhound often had marginal routes that they wanted to drop, but also wanted to avoid the dog and pony show that went with abandonment hearings. Since I was with Pacific Trailways, I contacted Continental Western Lines in Los Angeles and Greyhound in San Francisco and a friend of mine got hold of Continental Southeastern Lines in Atlanta. I was most interested in Continental's route from San Francisco and Sacramento to Seattle, the old West Coast Trailways, and while Bill Hylton in Los Angeles personally would have liked to let it go, Dallas couldn't make a decision. Greyhound in San Francisco was offering two local routes, San Francisco to Stockton via Concord and San Francisco to Santa Rosa via Sonoma. Both were fair, revenue wise, but more importantly, they would come with ICC grandfather charter rights in the Bay area. At this time. Only Greyhound, Continental and Peerless Stages had ICC charter rights in the Bay area. Our talks were moving along quite nicely until all communication from Greyhound ceased. Several months after we had moved to North Carolina, my contact at Greyhound wrote to ask if we were still interested, but, by then, it was too late.
With Greyhound suddenly unreachable for whatever reason, we turned to Trailways, Inc. In Atlanta. They had two routes available, Asheville, NC to Bristol, VA via Johnson City, TN and Columbia, SC to Anderson, SC via Greenwood.
The revenue on the two routes was about even and so, based on the fact that Asheville seemed the nicer place to live, I chose the Asheville-Bristol route, which was my first stupid mistake, but unfortunately I didn't realize it until we were well into business and committed to the Bristol route. Hind sight certainly is 20/20.
We incorporated in November 1978 as Blue Ridge Lines, Ltd., a member of the Trailways association from the git-go. By the time all the certificates were transferred (remember this is before deregulation), we were in 1979 and began running the Bristol route on June 1, 1979. Because we were "Trailways," the passengers only took note of the difference in the buses. Instead of TWI's Eagles, we used GM PD-4107's, and many of the passengers thought they were brand new. TWI had been trying to kill the route and had the service down to one round trip a day and no service on Sunday. We put daily service back on and added another round trip in the evenings. Both improvements were immediately well received with passengers.
We decided to start with four used buses and one brand new one. For used buses, we bought four 1967 ex-Greyhound GM PD-4107's through my friend Dick Seitzinger at Hausman Bus Sales in Los Angeles. He chose carefully for me and we ended up with all Western Greyhound buses. I knew I could trust my friend Dick and so we bought sight unseen, something that would be repeated ten times. A friend of mine and I made two trips to California to ferry the 4107's back to Asheville where we refurbished the interiors, installed new upholstery and my brother made sure everything electrical worked again.
For our new bus, we chose a Prevost. I was well acquainted with them but they were virtually unknown in the Southeast... in fact we bought the first, new Prevost in the South. Waylon Jennings got the second, but his was an artist's coach. We went with Prevost because our main local competition and Greyhound were running MCI's and Continental had Eagles, our Prevost would be something different. Prevost had three models, the Champion (what Waylon bought), the Prestige and the Mirage. The Mirage cost $5,000 more, so we decided on the Prestige. Prevost sold a lot of buses in the Southeast because of our purchase, I know, because we got the phone calls from other operators to find out how we liked them and what our experience had been.
Not long after we started, we found out our "friends" at Trailways Inc. (TWI) would run passengers and package express around us and would refuse to quote us for any competing destinations. Since we had to exist off this 100 mile long line, we had to fight for our rights and finally Jim Kerrigan in Dallas had to tell TWI in Atlanta to do right by us. It allowed us to "breath more freely" but didn't win us any fans in Atlanta. Thus, in 1980, when TWI's Regional Vice President, Bill Lambert, in Atlanta came up and put his arm around my shoulder and proposed we take over their Asheville-Chattanooga line, I was more than suspicious.
I did a study on the route. It did pretty well coming east from Memphis through the Chattanooga gateway, but westbound, all the departures came through Asheville right on top of competing service via Knoxville and Nashville to Memphis which was faster, so the revenue westbound was pretty thin. I proposed some schedule changes and thru-bus arrangements that would help that situation and which actually saved one bus necessary to run the service. Everyone agreed the changes would be good, but no one would commit to making them. I started to really feel uneasy about it and suspected that they were planning on taking service off feeding the route between Memphis and Chattanooga, I decided that there were too many butterflies in my stomach to go ahead with the route transfer and we declined. Sure enough, not long after that they cut service into Chattanooga and I was proved correct. Atlanta did the same thing a few years later to American Trailways (American Coach Lines of Norcross, GA) when they got American to take over the Atlanta-Huntsville route and then two months later cut off all the feed and connecting schedules for it at Huntsville. TWI's Atlanta folks were outraged when American promptly abandoned the route which couldn't exist without the connections.
Our first Eagles came in 1980. They were the 01 style of Model 05's, built in 1968. We began to retire the 4107's due to the fact that the two lane highway we ran to cross the mountains to the Tri-Cities, once you crossed into Tennessee, was a real old Southern mountain switch back and that twisting motion was having its effect on GM's monocoque bodies. TWI's mechanics in Asheville had warned us the effect it would have on a GM and we decided to sell the equipment while they were still in prime shape, The Eagles, which were a fully framed bus, did very well on the mountain, but were more expensive to operate.
In 1981 we moved to strengthen the north end of the line and obtained rights to serve Kingsport, TN. At first we used the Greyhound depot but they wouldn't quote or sell on us, so we opened our own agency and this turned out to be an excellent source of traffic for us. In the Tri-Cities, the Bristol agent quoted us fairly, but TWI's company station in Johnson City quoted everything around us via Knoxville, so Kingsport's traffic was sorely needed. We also added our second new Prevost, a Mirage, this year.
1982 brought the World's Fair at Knoxville, Tennessee. Friends at Michaud Trailways cautioned me, based on their experience with the 1964 World's Fair at New York City, to treat it like it was going to be one heck of a charter year, but not to expand, buying extra buses, hiring extra drivers and mechanics, etc. The advice stood us in good stead, and while the competition expanded and almost bankrupted his company, we finished 1982 in great financial shape. By this time we had purchased three Model 07 Eagles from TWI at Denver and an ex-Virginia Stage line Model 05 from the Knoxville shop. That one was an absolute cream puff, one that had been remanufactured in Brownsville and I think they wouldn't have sold it if Dallas had been able to look at it.
During 1983 and 84, TWI was in the midst of killing that route to Chattanooga and had already cut it back to end at Murphy, NC, not far from the state line, plus it didn't operate on Sunday either. They filed to abandon the route and we approached the NC Department of Transportation and the Tennessee Dept. Of Transportation to subsidize the service if we took it over. Tennessee refused to talk about it but North Carolina came through with Federal Title 18 funding for rural transportation which covered half our losses, the State was supposed to kick in the other half... That was good for a joke, but at least half was better than nothing. We ran the westbound trip as a thru-bus from the Tri-Cities to Chattanooga via Asheville and while it didn't set the world on fire, the revenue was better than what TWI had on it. East bound, the run ended at Asheville and we had a direct connection from both Miami and Atlanta and from Memphis feeding us for our 4:00 AM departure. When we commenced service we cut quite a bit of time off TWI's previous running time but leaving Chattanooga, TWI carried all the passengers for Waynesville, Asheville and beyond around us via Knoxville. I couldn't say anything because they matched our running time. Of course they wanted all the traffic we could generate as we came up the road to feed their schedules at Asheville. Some things never change.
We now had big problems with the route crossing the mountains to the Tri-Cities. It was what is called a "bridge route." it couldn't stand on its own with local traffic but absolutely had to have connections from everywhere feeding it at one end, and connections to everywhere at the other. Trouble was, Trailways, Inc. was having problems and was cutting service... We were loosing our connections, we had a bridge but with fewer and fewer people crossing it.
In 1985, things were getting pretty tight and it is my belief that friends of our company at TWI headquarters in Dallas realizing that without meaning to, they were killing our line. TWI's Vice President of Traffic was Malcolm Myers, a long time friend and at one time a Queen City employee before the Continental purchase of Queen City and his transfer to Dallas. I got a call from Malcolm one day and he offered us TWI's route from Asheville to Charleston, SC via Spartanburg and Columbia. I'll sound ungrateful at this point, but I said, "...what's wrong with it Malcolm?" His reply was that there was nothing wrong with it but that it just dead ended in Charleston and didn't fit in with their grand scheme of things. I found out years later that our old nemesis, Bill Lambert from Atlanta was livid about the idea but that Jim Kerrigan just told him, "Do IT." To say that it was good for us is an understatement, it was marvelous, and for years I wondered why they did it. It's obvious now that my friend realized what was happening to us and saved our bus line. What can I say?
Course I fooled with it a bit, tightened up the schedules and added some service back where TWI had taken it off and was lucky enough to have it work and bear fruit. Of course, our increased traffic on the route brought TWI more business than they had been getting, so it wasn't just one sided.
1986 saw the end of service across the mountain and then shortly after the line west was dropped too. With Tennessee unwilling to help, we were running the last half of the route, all in Tennessee, with two and three people on the bus and while I like to run buses and enjoyed serving Chattanooga (the agent there was fantastic) we couldn't afford to subsidize the State of Tennessee when they weren't even willing to dole out Federal funds they were already getting, preferring to spend it on rural van service. With the loss of those few overhead passengers to and from Tennessee, the NC-DOT decided that not enough people were riding the NC portion and ended their subsidy participation and one of Smoky Mountain Trailways' first routes, indeed the Trailways association's first route west, slipped away into history.
Our world ended in the spring of 1988 when our worst nightmare came true with the announcement that Greyhound Lines was purchasing Trailways, Inc. It wasn't just a surprise to us, only three people at TWI headquarters in Dallas knew what was happening, Jim Kerrigan, Harry Lesko and Ben Robinson. It was already on the news when their employees were called into the halls at HQ and told. When members of the Trailways association gathered in Washington shortly after the announcement, Fred Currey had already cut sweetheart "revenue sharing" deals with Carolina Trailways and Indianapolis & Southeastern, to effectively make sure that portions of Trailways had no vested interest in seeing the rest of the association succeed. Their fortunes were now locked into Greyhound.
For us and others, as terminals were combined we found that only Greyhound routings were quoted. We lost ALL our business from Charleston to the northeast, all the business we handled from Charleston and Columbia through the Spartanburg gateway to the west. Greyhound schedules loading in front of us in Columbia even took our Spartanburg passengers long routing them through Greenville. Things didn't get better for any of Trailways, us included.
Then Greyhound's drivers struck and their bankruptcy followed. They asked us to pick up and serve where they weren't able to. Places like Knoxville and Charlotte. Then, when they began to get their service started again using non-union strike breakers, they put us out of the Knoxville Terminal saying that we didn't have a terminal license agreement. In other areas, business was diverted to Greyhound affiliates like Southeastern Stages at our expense.
In 1996, I was called by a senior Greyhound official from Dallas and informed that they had decided that we "...didn't add anything to the Greyhound System and were really carrying passengers who should be riding Greyhound buses." Then he raised our terminal rent at every location 800%. The service we were left operating, Charlotte to Charleston was profitable for us, but couldn't carry that kind of expense and I was forced to shut .the schedule operation down. After 18 years of struggling and building, I watched another man destroy what we'd built and was powerless to do anything to stop it. The day following our last schedule, Greyhound buses were running our schedules and do to this day. That's progress you see.
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[Mark Fisher said]
1. Individual and Personal Integrity (or lack thereof) outlasts corporations .
Oh agreed. Doug Woodie and I were talking about that the other day. I was always so proud of the people I worked beside at Blue Ridge. They were always the model of how things should be done, so much so that even Greyhound's and Trailways' supervision noticed and commented on it.
2. The small business founder seldom plans an ending. However, no one lives forever, so longevity is only one measure, and quality of the living time also counts, right ?
I think so. The thought of someone else forcing me out of business never occurred to me though, not with the U.S. government giving someone the keys to the store and then walking away. We weren't a big company, our revenues never exceeded about $4.5 million a year, but we always carried on like we were a coast-to-coast outfit . We never had any problem keeping agents, unlike some others we know. 4. The sad fact is that most new businesses don't make it 5 years. It seems to me that you guys did a lot of things right, and adjusted to outside forces pretty well. For the most part, we made do with other people's cast-offs. 6. I'll bet that you had some fun while doing all of this. I'll bet other readers here would also like to hear more details. For example, I for one would love to hear the details of your "adventure" bringing those PD-4107's 2500 miles east. Well, here's a picture of the first two stopped to eat in Arizona. The numbers haven't been put on yet and the special "Blue Ridge" and gold leaf decal aren't on the roof. We really had virtually no trouble at all, just a long, long, drive. We came across through Dallas and then up through Memphis and into Asheville on I-40. We got a lot of strange looks from other Trailways drivers in their Eagles as we passed the other direction in 4107's! The buses came straight out of Western Greyhound's fleet. Each morning Dick would go by their garage in L.A. and look over what was there. Hausman bought all the 4107's but they took them individually as they could sell them, so he looked for the best for us. They were painted at Ryan Truck Painting in L.A. and I know that it messed over those folks minds because the buses came to them with full Greyhound markings and left painted Trailways! The only problem we encountered is that 77856 wanted to drop its prime occasionally after it had been parked and shut off. I was always able to get it started though. After we got it back, it continued doing the same thing with us and my brother finally just started going through the whole fuel system inch by inch and finally found the problem. He said as he covered the bases that it was obvious that Greyhound had been looking for the problem for a long time as he came across new parts that they had put on.Click here for picture of BRI 4107's [Ed Cross commented] I for one would love to hear more about bringing the " 07's to the Tarheel. We had two sets of "07's" so I'm not sure whether you meant the GM's or the Eagles. I just told some about the GM's, so I can mention a bit about the Model 07 Eagles. We wanted to move into "square look" Eagles. At the time they were just beginning to sell the "square looks" and had a few 05's and some Model 07's available. This was in 1981. I was very familiar with the 07's because I had driven them at Safeway. They scared most people because they were 102" wide, so TWI had them priced $5K a piece less than the 05's which were for sale. I was most concerned (1) that they could be legally titled in NC and (2) that the windshields were available from PPG -- the 07's did not have a tapered front end and standard windshields like the model 15's later. I found that 07's were legal in NC (and other surrounding states - and where they weren't no one knew the difference because they looked like a normal 05) and PPG still made the glass. TWI had all the 07's concentrated in Denver, so a friend of mine and I flew out to look them over and pick one out. Turns out that the shop manager in Denver was an old friend from Safeway and we got the royal treatment. We spent several days looking at the buses as they came and went and made our choice, DCSP 18552 which had originally been Safeway 32528. We eventually bought three Model 07's. When we got the first one home, we were so pleased with it that we went right back for another. On our initial visit I actually eye-balled all three that we bought. The second bus was one they were putting an engine in during our first visit, Rocky Mountain 21576 which was originally Safeway 32542. The second bus was the only one which still had the "lightning bolt" on the side and on the way home I went by way of Dallas and had the body work done on it. We dropped it off on Friday afternoon and the fellow at I-45 Bus * Truck (he also worked in the TWI body shop at 315 Continental Avenue) brought it back to me at the motel on Monday with the sides lowered (G body inspection), repainted and with the new decals on it and numbers. With the World's Fair approaching in Knoxville and fantastic experience with the first two 07's, I called TWI and inquired about the third bus I'd seen, Rocky Mountain 21506. That bus had spent its entire life in Colorado running back and forth between Grand Junction and Pueblo over Salida Pass - I'd seen it many times while I was going to school out there. This is the bus in the picture of the 07 that was posted with the installment - taken after my brother cherried out the body and repainted it. When I called about it, it was no longer in Denver but in San Francisco. I was offered a discount because it had a weak engine but was assured it would make it home. I arranged for an ABL driver to bring it to me in Salt Lake City. When I landed in SLC, there was a message for me to call the office and I found out that the bus had broken down and had to be towed back to the SFO shop! What I found out was that the bus had pulled a sleeve in the middle of the Bay Bridge, it hadn't made it 10 miles! I talked to TWI's people in Dallas and they sold us a reman'd engine and installed it while I waited in Salt Lake City. When the bus finally got to me, the same driver brought it, it ran like a top. The Model 07 Eagles were fantastic buses. Both our drivers and passengers loved them, in fact years later Doug Woodie doubled a Greyhound from Charlotte to Charleston, WV, and ate their bus up. Maybe he'll recount the story for us, it's funny. They all were bought for either artists coaches or motor homes and we had people calling to see if we still had any years after the last one was gone. The bus in the picture, BTW, was converted to a 45 footer, had Model 15 clips put on the front and rear and runs for The Kingsman Quartet" if any of you are into Gospel music. I also would enjoy the " Over The Mountain " schedule you had. I know how narrow and crooked US 23 used to be. I remember doing it in a Truck and also later in a bus. The first time was before any of the upgrades were done. I remember all those 25 MPH curves. The longer we ran that mountain over "Sam's Gap" and US 23, the more I realized just how dangerous the road was. [Doug Wilkerson added] It's easy to see why equipment and folks got worn out on the old roads. Still the new Interstate will have 5% and 6% grades. There's very little of the old road left. From the state line at the top of Sam's Gap on all of the Tennessee portion now, it's an Interstate highway. Besides being a switch back, that area was beautiful and when Tennessee built the new road, they cut down every tree on that mountain and then carved the new road into the side of it. I've never drove it in a bus, but as you point out, the grades are wicked and the road is wide open, no protection from the winter weather. I didn't like the look of it at all. If you don't mind, I have some follow-up questions for you regarding the Blue Ridge installment on T.B.D. 1. Did Pacific Trailways ever consider operating CWL's San Francisco-Seattle route while you were there? No. It had been offered to PT before I went there and, as Bill Niskanen admitted to me, not taking it was one of the stupidest things he ever did. Potentially it was a much stronger route than PT's existing main line from Portland to Salt Lake City, but he realized it too late. TWI would have given it to PT for $1.00! 2.Did Blue Ridge ever consider operating past Kingsport, TN and Norton, VA on US 23 up to Pikeville and Ashland, KY, especially after Greyhound abandoned the Pikeville-Ashland ca 1991? Or any Consolidated Trailways routes? We ran up to Norton and Big Stone Gap under temporary ICC authority. It hadn't had service for a while, Bristol-Jenkins Bus Line had quit serving the area. The revenue was too thin and I didn't feel like subsidizing the State of Virginia and it's citizens. We applied to Virginia for Title 18 funds and they refused and told us our request wasn't legal and wouldn't listen to anything I said. That isn't the part of Virginia that the law makers in Richmond care about. At the same time, our temporary authority was expiring and the ICC denied our permanent application! Unbelievable!!! So, I pulled the service off. Then the stuff hit the fan and all of a sudden the ICC decided they'd made a mistake and the State got interested. I really wasn't in a mood to fool with them any longer and told them they were a day late and a dollar short and we never ran up there again. Years earlier we did have thru service to Bluefield from Asheville, but that was a pool with the late Bill Vanderbilt's Dominion Trailways who operated the Bristol to Bluefield section over the old Tennessee Coach route.. 3.Did Blue Ridge ever consider operating all the way to Memphis on the Asheville-Chattanooga-Memphis route after Trailways, Inc. dropped it? No, we only went as far as Chattanooga and when we stopped going all the way to Chattanooga, TWI was still on the route, which actually survived into Greyhound ownership although I believe its gone now. Greyhound didn't have a clue about what to do with it or where the people went. 4. In your Eagle 77610 picture the destination is Bluefield. You once mentioned pooling with Dominion Trailways. Is this during that period? You picked that up. I mentioned it above. The thru bus did good things for us, but Bill Vanderbilt told me that he was loosing fifty cents a mile on his 100 mile long segment. Dominion did much better when they ran from Roanoke to Greensboro. 5. On the Asheville-Chattanooga route, did Blue Ridge use the same bus stop in Cherokee by the bridge that Smoky Mt. used for many years? No, we had our own agency that was up at the Cherokee Tribal Grounds and it did very well for us. There is the Oconoluftee Job Corps Center there plus the Indians are always going back and forth to Oklahoma plus international visitors going there to visit Smoky Mountain National Park. 6. Do you have schedules for Asheville-Bristol-Bluefield that you could post? Ummm, I should have, but my dad got a wild hair and decided he was going to clean out the Asheville office when I was gone and threw so much stuff away that I was saving. There was no stopping him when he decided something had to be done. Here is the schedule though.... 3p30 Lv Bluefield, WV...........Ar 12p30 6p15 Lv Bristol, VA-TN..........Lv 10a30 9p40 Ar Asheville, NC...........Lv 7a15 Each company had 100 miles in the route. The schedule was pulled with all Blue Ridge equipment and our drivers drove Dominion's route too. It was a turn around and was a 400 mile day. To equalize the miles, a Dominion bus and driver pulled a round trip from Bristol to Asheville every day. 7. Was revenue sharing discussed at the Washington meeting? Yeah, but it was a done deal and we found out it had only been offered to four member companies, I&S and Carolina who took it and Capital and Colonial who turned it down. The rest of us were never invited to the party! 8. Was Asheville the Blue Ridge headquarters during all 18 years? No, at the end, I ran it out of Charleston, SC, but things were coming apart at the seams then. Not a happy time. Jon, did BRT also operate P8M4108A's ? I have a couple of pictures of units 77430 and 77432 I think. How many, and what were the origin of these units ? We had two P8M-4108A's, here's a picture of one of them. Trailways companies do a lot of swapping around and these two came from Ben Kramer's Peoria-Rockford Bus Co. operation. When they left our property, they went to what was then called Trailways Northwest in Vancouver, BC.Click here for picture of the BRI 4108 Gerry Jones said... Enjoyed this very much. Sound like you had a great company, and it would have been a fun place to work. It was/ I had so many great people to work with, they all knew their job, nobody hassled anyone. It sounds a lot like Inland Empire Stages. They only due charter work. After I retired from Amtrak I worked in their office, until I moved to New Mexico. From what you've said, they sounded like nice people. > You said your with Pacific Trailways. I believe they were out of Bend OR. Did you know a Steve Jones, I believe he was Pacific shop Forman? He now works for Inland Empire. When I was with PT, the Director of Maintenance was the late Ron Gallagher, a really great guy and master mechanic. Thanks for the interesting information on Virginia Overland. > JON,I always dreamed and wondered about those PD4107's. However, > during the time Hausman had them for sale, we weren't running > motoroaches. Whatever became of those 100 units ? Weren't they the > end of the line for bus supply relationships between Greyhound and GM? Greyhound bought two batches of 4107's, the first came in 1966 and the last in 1967. The 1966 units had some real problems for everyone who had them so we stayed away freom them. We chose 4107's )they were selling MC-5A's at the time too) because GM was still making that style bus, the price was right, the large baggage bins made it easy to handle the bass drums, tubas, etc. for school bands. As I said, both our drivers and passengers really liked them. No one ever complained that we sent an old bus and they never broke down. Course they were refurbished inside sand out. We sold all four of ours at a profit, no less... one went to Chamberlain's Bus Service in Mansfield, PA, another to some sort of Pentacostal ministry in Anderson, SC and then to Coach Charters in Greenville who wrecked it, and the other two went to Taz Transportation in Portland. I guess Buzz Raz liked them because he came back to us and asked if we had more. Jon INDEX Home Page Page 2 Page 3 Page 4 Page 5 Page 6 Page 7 Page 8 Page 9 Page 10 Page 11 Page 12 Links If You Like What You Have Read And Would Like To See More, Please Take The Time To Sign Jon's Guestbook. View My Guestbook Sign My Guestbook EMAIL
4. The sad fact is that most new businesses don't make it 5 years. It seems to me that you guys did a lot of things right, and adjusted to outside forces pretty well.
For the most part, we made do with other people's cast-offs.
6. I'll bet that you had some fun while doing all of this. I'll bet other readers here would also like to hear more details. For example, I for one would love to hear the details of your "adventure" bringing those PD-4107's 2500 miles east.
Well, here's a picture of the first two stopped to eat in Arizona. The numbers haven't been put on yet and the special "Blue Ridge" and gold leaf decal aren't on the roof. We really had virtually no trouble at all, just a long, long, drive. We came across through Dallas and then up through Memphis and into Asheville on I-40. We got a lot of strange looks from other Trailways drivers in their Eagles as we passed the other direction in 4107's!
The buses came straight out of Western Greyhound's fleet. Each morning Dick would go by their garage in L.A. and look over what was there. Hausman bought all the 4107's but they took them individually as they could sell them, so he looked for the best for us. They were painted at Ryan Truck Painting in L.A. and I know that it messed over those folks minds because the buses came to them with full Greyhound markings and left painted Trailways! The only problem we encountered is that 77856 wanted to drop its prime occasionally after it had been parked and shut off. I was always able to get it started though. After we got it back, it continued doing the same thing with us and my brother finally just started going through the whole fuel system inch by inch and finally found the problem. He said as he covered the bases that it was obvious that Greyhound had been looking for the problem for a long time as he came across new parts that they had put on.Click here for picture of BRI 4107's
[Ed Cross commented] I for one would love to hear more about bringing the " 07's to the Tarheel.
We had two sets of "07's" so I'm not sure whether you meant the GM's or the Eagles. I just told some about the GM's, so I can mention a bit about the Model 07 Eagles. We wanted to move into "square look" Eagles. At the time they were just beginning to sell the "square looks" and had a few 05's and some Model 07's available. This was in 1981. I was very familiar with the 07's because I had driven them at Safeway. They scared most people because they were 102" wide, so TWI had them priced $5K a piece less than the 05's which were for sale. I was most concerned (1) that they could be legally titled in NC and (2) that the windshields were available from PPG -- the 07's did not have a tapered front end and standard windshields like the model 15's later. I found that 07's were legal in NC (and other surrounding states - and where they weren't no one knew the difference because they looked like a normal 05) and PPG still made the glass. TWI had all the 07's concentrated in Denver, so a friend of mine and I flew out to look them over and pick one out. Turns out that the shop manager in Denver was an old friend from Safeway and we got the royal treatment. We spent several days looking at the buses as they came and went and made our choice, DCSP 18552 which had originally been Safeway 32528. We eventually bought three Model 07's. When we got the first one home, we were so pleased with it that we went right back for another. On our initial visit I actually eye-balled all three that we bought. The second bus was one they were putting an engine in during our first visit, Rocky Mountain 21576 which was originally Safeway 32542. The second bus was the only one which still had the "lightning bolt" on the side and on the way home I went by way of Dallas and had the body work done on it. We dropped it off on Friday afternoon and the fellow at I-45 Bus * Truck (he also worked in the TWI body shop at 315 Continental Avenue) brought it back to me at the motel on Monday with the sides lowered (G body inspection), repainted and with the new decals on it and numbers.
With the World's Fair approaching in Knoxville and fantastic experience with the first two 07's, I called TWI and inquired about the third bus I'd seen, Rocky Mountain 21506. That bus had spent its entire life in Colorado running back and forth between Grand Junction and Pueblo over Salida Pass - I'd seen it many times while I was going to school out there. This is the bus in the picture of the 07 that was posted with the installment - taken after my brother cherried out the body and repainted it. When I called about it, it was no longer in Denver but in San Francisco. I was offered a discount because it had a weak engine but was assured it would make it home. I arranged for an ABL driver to bring it to me in Salt Lake City. When I landed in SLC, there was a message for me to call the office and I found out that the bus had broken down and had to be towed back to the SFO shop! What I found out was that the bus had pulled a sleeve in the middle of the Bay Bridge, it hadn't made it 10 miles! I talked to TWI's people in Dallas and they sold us a reman'd engine and installed it while I waited in Salt Lake City. When the bus finally got to me, the same driver brought it, it ran like a top.
The Model 07 Eagles were fantastic buses. Both our drivers and passengers loved them, in fact years later Doug Woodie doubled a Greyhound from Charlotte to Charleston, WV, and ate their bus up. Maybe he'll recount the story for us, it's funny. They all were bought for either artists coaches or motor homes and we had people calling to see if we still had any years after the last one was gone. The bus in the picture, BTW, was converted to a 45 footer, had Model 15 clips put on the front and rear and runs for The Kingsman Quartet" if any of you are into Gospel music.
I also would enjoy the " Over The Mountain " schedule you had. I know how narrow and crooked US 23 used to be. I remember doing it in a Truck and also later in a bus. The first time was before any of the upgrades were done.
I remember all those 25 MPH curves. The longer we ran that mountain over "Sam's Gap" and US 23, the more I realized just how dangerous the road was.
[Doug Wilkerson added] It's easy to see why equipment and folks got worn out on the old roads. Still the new Interstate will have 5% and 6% grades.
There's very little of the old road left. From the state line at the top of Sam's Gap on all of the Tennessee portion now, it's an Interstate highway. Besides being a switch back, that area was beautiful and when Tennessee built the new road, they cut down every tree on that mountain and then carved the new road into the side of it. I've never drove it in a bus, but as you point out, the grades are wicked and the road is wide open, no protection from the winter weather. I didn't like the look of it at all.
If you don't mind, I have some follow-up questions for you regarding the Blue Ridge installment on T.B.D.
1. Did Pacific Trailways ever consider operating CWL's San Francisco-Seattle route while you were there?
No. It had been offered to PT before I went there and, as Bill Niskanen admitted to me, not taking it was one of the stupidest things he ever did. Potentially it was a much stronger route than PT's existing main line from Portland to Salt Lake City, but he realized it too late. TWI would have given it to PT for $1.00!
2.Did Blue Ridge ever consider operating past Kingsport, TN and Norton, VA on US 23 up to Pikeville and Ashland, KY, especially after Greyhound abandoned the Pikeville-Ashland ca 1991? Or any Consolidated Trailways routes?
We ran up to Norton and Big Stone Gap under temporary ICC authority. It hadn't had service for a while, Bristol-Jenkins Bus Line had quit serving the area. The revenue was too thin and I didn't feel like subsidizing the State of Virginia and it's citizens. We applied to Virginia for Title 18 funds and they refused and told us our request wasn't legal and wouldn't listen to anything I said. That isn't the part of Virginia that the law makers in Richmond care about. At the same time, our temporary authority was expiring and the ICC denied our permanent application! Unbelievable!!! So, I pulled the service off. Then the stuff hit the fan and all of a sudden the ICC decided they'd made a mistake and the State got interested. I really wasn't in a mood to fool with them any longer and told them they were a day late and a dollar short and we never ran up there again. Years earlier we did have thru service to Bluefield from Asheville, but that was a pool with the late Bill Vanderbilt's Dominion Trailways who operated the Bristol to Bluefield section over the old Tennessee Coach route..
3.Did Blue Ridge ever consider operating all the way to Memphis on the Asheville-Chattanooga-Memphis route after Trailways, Inc. dropped it?
No, we only went as far as Chattanooga and when we stopped going all the way to Chattanooga, TWI was still on the route, which actually survived into Greyhound ownership although I believe its gone now. Greyhound didn't have a clue about what to do with it or where the people went.
4. In your Eagle 77610 picture the destination is Bluefield. You once mentioned pooling with Dominion Trailways. Is this during that period?
You picked that up. I mentioned it above. The thru bus did good things for us, but Bill Vanderbilt told me that he was loosing fifty cents a mile on his 100 mile long segment. Dominion did much better when they ran from Roanoke to Greensboro.
5. On the Asheville-Chattanooga route, did Blue Ridge use the same bus stop in Cherokee by the bridge that Smoky Mt. used for many years?
No, we had our own agency that was up at the Cherokee Tribal Grounds and it did very well for us. There is the Oconoluftee Job Corps Center there plus the Indians are always going back and forth to Oklahoma plus international visitors going there to visit Smoky Mountain National Park.
6. Do you have schedules for Asheville-Bristol-Bluefield that you could post?
Ummm, I should have, but my dad got a wild hair and decided he was going to clean out the Asheville office when I was gone and threw so much stuff away that I was saving. There was no stopping him when he decided something had to be done. Here is the schedule though....
3p30 Lv Bluefield, WV...........Ar 12p30
6p15 Lv Bristol, VA-TN..........Lv 10a30
9p40 Ar Asheville, NC...........Lv 7a15
Each company had 100 miles in the route. The schedule was pulled with all Blue Ridge equipment and our drivers drove Dominion's route too. It was a turn around and was a 400 mile day. To equalize the miles, a Dominion bus and driver pulled a round trip from Bristol to Asheville every day.
7. Was revenue sharing discussed at the Washington meeting?
Yeah, but it was a done deal and we found out it had only been offered to four member companies, I&S and Carolina who took it and Capital and Colonial who turned it down. The rest of us were never invited to the party!
8. Was Asheville the Blue Ridge headquarters during all 18 years?
No, at the end, I ran it out of Charleston, SC, but things were coming apart at the seams then. Not a happy time.
Jon, did BRT also operate P8M4108A's ? I have a couple of pictures of units 77430 and 77432 I think. How many, and what were the origin of these units ?
We had two P8M-4108A's, here's a picture of one of them. Trailways companies do a lot of swapping around and these two came from Ben Kramer's Peoria-Rockford Bus Co. operation. When they left our property, they went to what was then called Trailways Northwest in Vancouver, BC.Click here for picture of the BRI 4108
Gerry Jones said...
Enjoyed this very much. Sound like you had a great company, and it would have been a fun place to work.
It was/ I had so many great people to work with, they all knew their job, nobody hassled anyone.
It sounds a lot like Inland Empire Stages. They only due charter work. After I retired from Amtrak I worked in their office, until I moved to New Mexico.
From what you've said, they sounded like nice people.
> You said your with Pacific Trailways. I believe they were out of Bend OR. Did you know a Steve Jones, I believe he was Pacific shop Forman? He now works for Inland Empire.
When I was with PT, the Director of Maintenance was the late Ron Gallagher, a really great guy and master mechanic.
Thanks for the interesting information on Virginia Overland. > JON,I always dreamed and wondered about those PD4107's. However, > during the time Hausman had them for sale, we weren't running > motoroaches. Whatever became of those 100 units ? Weren't they the > end of the line for bus supply relationships between Greyhound and GM?
Greyhound bought two batches of 4107's, the first came in 1966 and the last in 1967. The 1966 units had some real problems for everyone who had them so we stayed away freom them. We chose 4107's )they were selling MC-5A's at the time too) because GM was still making that style bus, the price was right, the large baggage bins made it easy to handle the bass drums, tubas, etc. for school bands. As I said, both our drivers and passengers really liked them. No one ever complained that we sent an old bus and they never broke down. Course they were refurbished inside sand out. We sold all four of ours at a profit, no less... one went to Chamberlain's Bus Service in Mansfield, PA, another to some sort of Pentacostal ministry in Anderson, SC and then to Coach Charters in Greenville who wrecked it, and the other two went to Taz Transportation in Portland. I guess Buzz Raz liked them because he came back to us and asked if we had more.
Jon
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